Julie Menanno, a top Marriage and Family Therapist and author of “Secure Love,” discusses attachment theory and its impact on relationships. She explains that secure attachment is characterized by low fear and easy connection, while anxious attachment involves high fears of abandonment and aggressive attempts to reconnect. Avoidant attachment involves shutting down emotions to avoid failure. Disorganized attachment, often stemming from traumatic childhoods, is unpredictable and intense. Julie emphasizes the importance of understanding and addressing these attachment styles to foster secure relationships. She also highlights the role of body intelligence in identifying and managing emotions.
00:00 Introduction and Overview
02:23 Understanding Attachment Theory and Styles
08:01 The Four Attachment Styles: Secure, Anxious, Avoidant, and Disorganized
25:47 The Gender Divide in Attachment Styles
31:46 Balancing Emotional Engagement and Masculinity in Relationships
33:14 Breaking Negative Cycles and Creating Emotional Safety
33:53 The Importance of Emotional Safety and Connection
35:12 The Impact of Shame and Blame in Relationships
36:40 Understanding Attachment Styles and Relationship Dynamics
43:31 Tools for Creating a Secure Attachment
48:18 The Power of Body Intelligence in Regulating Emotions
Julie Menanno 0:00
Look, 200 years ago, people didn’t really marry for love. They married for convenience and, you know, financial reasons, whatever security reasons, some people did, but now we marry predominantly for love and companionship.
Natalie 0:11
We are stoked beyond reasoning to welcome Julie Manono to the podcast today. She’s a top Marriage and Family Therapist and The Best Selling Author of Secure Love. She has almost a million Instagram followers, which is no small feat, and a global coaching practice. Julie brings expert relationship advice and insights that we promise you are not going to want to miss.
Julie Menanno 0:32
What anxious partners are really saying when they make these comments that sometimes are pretty mean, you know, is, this is what’s my part of the relationship problem. That’s what they’re saying. Our bodies are designed to create fear to help us stay safe from bad things happening.
Natalie 0:48
Yeah. Protection, right?
Julie Menanno 0:49
If you don’t see the connection between that type of communication and your relationship problems, you’re completely blind. What I think is the absolute best information out there is…
Natalie 0:59
Julie, welcome to the Invigor medical podcast.
Julie Menanno 1:04
Thank you for having me.Thanks for that beautiful introduction.
Natalie 1:07
Oh, you’re welcome. I practiced it. [laughing]
Julie Menanno 1:10
I can tell.
Natalie 1:13
We’ve both, you know, Derek read the whole book. I almost got through the book. And we also have the books in office. We have here or in the studio, the secure love, which Julie is the author of. It’s, it’s, it’s so, so good. If you have any kind of understanding of what attachment styles are, or whether or not you don’t, it’s so comprehensive. And really, just like, I think one of the reasons I hadn’t finished it yet is because I kept, kind of like rewinding and thinking, and that’s kind of how I read a process. It often takes me a lot longer on one book, because there’s, it’s so thought provoking. And then I didn’t even know about this one until Derek brought it in this morning. But this cute little it’s like a handbook with, like, illustrations, and it’s so easily digestible.
Derek 1:52
I love the illustrations. They’re pretty good.
Natalie 1:53
Yeah, it’s almost like a teeny, tiny coffee table book, you know, that you could kind of just look to and have these reminders of of how to be in secure attachment. So let’s just start – I just want to start with something very basic for those of our listeners who are tuning in and are not familiar with attachment theory, because I think it would be important to have a really basic understanding. I mean, we have a lot of directions we want to go here, and so I don’t want this whole thing to be all about what is attachment theory, but I think it’s going to be important for our listeners to get a basic understanding if they don’t have one. So could we maybe start there, just really briefly. Can you explain to our listeners what is attachment theory and how it plays a role in your practice and the books that you’ve written?
Julie Menanno 1:53
Absolutely, so let’s start with this that, you know, we go through life from the time we are honestly, before we’re even born, we start becoming relational. But let’s say, from the time we’re born, we start having experiences with relationships. And if you’re in kind of a dysfunctional, oreven mildly dysfunctional environment growing up, you’re going to have some bad experiences around relationships. And any bad experiences that humans go through are going to create fear. That’s what they’re-you know, our bodies are designed to create fear to help us stay safe from bad things happening.
Natalie 3:17
Yeah, protection, right?
Julie Menanno 3:18
Yeah, and so then on top of that, we are wired to connect with other humans. You know, we need the safety of connection because, you know, that’s part of our survival mechanisms, is we really, ultimately, at the end of the day, can’t survive, which regarding shelter and getting food. You know, primitive humans, without the help of other humans. We’resocial animals, so we have that wiring. And so what happens is, is that we have that-we all kind of carry around these fears of relationships, right? And people with secure attachment have fewer fears because they’ve had fewer bad experiences, really, with relationships. But then we have these people who grew up in homes with a lot of relationship friction, so we define their attachment style by the nature of the fears, the intensity of the fears, and how we go about managing the fears? Okay? So two things, the fear and the management of the fear and people can generally be divided into four categories based on those two things. So someone with a secure attachment, that means their relationship with other people, and I work with romantic relationships, so is defined by low fear and easy connection, right? And sowhen they do have these fears come up, they do have relationship ruptures, and they do have relationship triggers where their partner didn’t say something nice, or they got worried, or whatever, they handle, they know how to handle it in a very healthy way. They know how to communicate and get back on track with their partner, or perhaps leave the relationship, if that’s the healthy thing to do.
Natalie 5:04
Right.
Julie Menanno 5:06
And then someone with an anxious attachment, they have very high fears. Their fears tend to revolve around abandonment themes, their partner, leaving them physically or emotional abandonment. nvalidation, you know, feeling misunderstood, feeling unsupported, emotionally. And the way that they handle those fears is they dive in to close the distance. They get desperate. They might get aggressive. They are, you know, they have a lot of anxiety about get reconnection, get my partner to change, get loud to be heard protest. You know, they just go into action mode.
Natalie 5:43
Disconnection. Disconnection is dangerous, right?
Julie Menanno 5:47
Absolutely, because it is dangerous! You know? And they’ve experienced a lot of it. So sometimes, you know, the threat of their partner, you know, kind of snapping at them that nobody likes that. Nobody, I mean, the most secure person in the world, doesn’t want to be snapped at, but with someone with an anxious attachment, it’s like I’m being emotionally abandoned. This is how it’s going to be from here on out. This is never going to go away. What does this mean about our relationship? Am I not enough for them? Why won’t they change? If they really loved me, they wouldn’t snap at me, and then they go into, you know, protest or whatever. And then someone with an avoidant attachment, their fears are more around not wanting to be a failure, not, you know, not wanting to be seen as unworthy. And so what they do with those fears is they try to get away from their emotions. And that means shutting down completely, or that might mean trying to kind of move their partner away from their distress so they don’t have to feel like they’re failing.
Derek 6:50
And all of that is kind of in service to preserving the relationship, right? Whether you know it’s whether it’s pathological or healthy, all of that’s trying to say, maintain the relationship so that that bond doesn’t go away.
Julie Menanno 7:03
Absolutely. They’re, you know, the anxious partner’s role in the relationship. They’re very rigid role is close the distance, and the avoidant partner’s very rigid role is keeping stable, yeah, keep things from getting worse. And what we want is, we want to secure people who have balanced ideas and balanced ways of getting both of those needs met. They’re like, okay, yeah, we do need to close the distance. We do need to maintain connection and intimacy, but we’re not going to try to make that happen in all of these kind of wonky ways that actually make things worse, you know? We do want to fight for not going into horrible fights and getting escalated. And so the avoidant partners kind of trying to keep things from getting ugly.
Derek 7:49
Or too hot. Bringing the temperature down.
Julie Menanno 7:51
Bringing the temperature down. The anxious partner is trying to close that, you know, close the distance with heat. And it’s just two very imbalanced, you know, ways of approaching it and rigid.
Derek 8:05
Yeah.
Julie Menanno 8:06
And it doesn’t allow each person to really be their whole selves.
Natalie 8:09
Yeah. And then the fourth, the fourth one is disorganized, right? Because we talked about we’ve got secure, and then we’ve got insecure, or anxious. Oh, I guess there’s the insecure category, which then holds anxious, avoidant and disorganized, right?
Julie Menanno 8:25
Yeah, so there’s two main categories, which is secure and insecure, and then insecure has three categories. And so I like to describe disorganized like this. Like you take a blender, you pour in some anxious, you pour in some avoidant, you sprinkle on top some trauma, you blend it up, and then you take a glass, and you might pour the blender in the glass, or you might just pour it all over the counter. So it’s just intense. It’s unpredictable. You might see avoidance strategies. You’re probably going to see more anxious strategies, but it’s just kind of-you don’t really know what to expect. One day, someone with a disorganized attachment might not be triggered by something. The next day, they’re extremely triggered by the same thing that happened the day before. So it’s just it’s very intense, and the reason is because they’re very afraid. They’re always afraid. They’re afraid-you know, for someone with an anxious and avoidant attachment, they grew up in what we would call emotionally insensitive homes. Someone with a disorganized attachment grew up in threatening homes where they were actually in danger a lot of the time. And that could be just like extreme emotional danger or even physical danger or neglect. And so what happens is, is that they learn, they start to believe that people are actually out to get them. And so it’s so easy for their brains to go to that place, and like, if you really believe in an interaction that someone wants to harm you, it’s appropriate to respond in an extreme way. It’s just the problem is, is a lot of times that’s not really what’s happening. That’s just, their brain has been wired around Stay Safe. So.
Derek 10:03
You know, this is something that my wife and I are actually currently having to deal with on kind of like a on a regular basis. I don’t know how much I want to share of this personally, because I don’t want to let out too many details, but we’re currently taking care of a child that was abused very, very early on in his life, and while I was reading your book, you mentioned something that was such a boon to me, just because of the amount of understanding it could give me. You talked about approach fear response, or where they will approach, but then they’ll, they’ll, like, draw back immediately, or do these various things. And as soon as you said that, I was able to identify as like, oh my gosh, this is what’s happening. Because before it’s just like, it is. It’s just so dysregulated. It’s like, one day he could be fine, the next day, he’s all over the place, and it’s very difficult and emotionally taxing, especially with a child that’s nonverbal and is unable to really express their needs. So I don’t know, can you, can you talk a little bit more about Approach Fear response.
Julie Menanno 11:03
Yeah. I mean, we’re-it’s just a conflict between the drive to connect and the fear of of people, the fear of the persons, especially the person who’s in kind of like a caretaking role. Because what happens is, is when you’re caretaker, you know, we’re, we’re wired. Children especially, are wired to see their caretaker as safe and love their caretaker and need, you know, emotional care from their caretaker, but then when that caretaker becomes the abuser, now the caretaker isn’t safe, so it’s just this enormous, constant conflict inside of their body of I need connection, but, you know, so, so that connection is going to motivate me to reach but then when I reach the fear, part of me clicks in, and I’m now afraid of this person. And so people, you know, children in these studies, reacted to that in lots of different ways. Some of them just would freeze up. Some of them would fall to the ground and just kind of start having a fit. Some would go hide, you know? Some would just cling, you know? But either way, it’s just this really, really terrible, you know, terrible inner experience that they just don’t emotionally know how to deal with.
Derek 12:22
So would you say that the most disorganized attachment styles are? You said they’re kind of from these experiences where it’s like the fear and the desire for attachments basically clash with each other to create these cross currents of like, they don’t know which way they need to go. They just know that they don’t feel safe and they need to feel safe, and it manifests in whatever possible way they can get that sense of safety.
Julie Menanno 12:44
Yes, I mean, imagine like you’re starving to death, right? And you’re sitting in a room with a giant ice cream sundae, and you’re starving or giant steak dinner or whatever, and you know that it’s poison, and you know that you’re, you’re gonna, you know, die or get really ill if you eat it. Like, how bad would that be?
Derek 13:03
Terrible. Yeah.
Julie Menanno 13:04
To be in that situation. Yeah.
Natalie 13:07
Yeah. I think kind of a point that I want to make as as we’re diving into this more, you know, for people listening is, you know, I feel like anytime there’s something like this that’s meant to kind of help identify and it could even just be like a personality profiling system. I think a lot of people are resistant to them at first, because it feels like being put in a box and being defined by something. And so I really like to set the stages like this is actually often ways to get out of the box in the places that you’re trapped and help you have freedom within your relationships and to experience love and connection. And you know, to say that if you, you know, digging into this, and it’s like, oh, well, I’m an avoidant. Or my, you know, my partner’s an avoidant, well, there’s that, that’s not just like, Okay, now we identified, and that’s it, and you are what you are, right? Because even in my experience, in my own life, having recognized a very anxious attachment style, and over the years working on it, it’s been incredible to see and feel that shift into more security, you know? And I’m in a relationship now, a new one, albeit, but it’s absolutely the most security I’ve ever felt in any kind of relationship. And I know that’s in part because of the work that I’ve done, but it’s also in part because of how he shows up, because he’s also done work, right?
Julie Menanno 14:21
For sure.
Natalie 14:21
And so it’s really a co-laboring. And I think the other thing that I kind of wanted to bring up is, I think that it’s especially if you’ve been in a long term relationship and you’re experiencing kind of the same issues over and over again. I know what I did when I was married previously. I’ll never forget the first Brene Brown book I got, that I listened to, that I had to then reread a few years later, once I’d done some more work, because the first time I’m like, Oh, he’s this, he’s that, and he really needs to hear this, you know what I mean? And you kind of get on that track of like, oh, they need to hear this, right? And so really, viewing this topic and the time with you in this conversation is an invitation to look inward.
Derek 14:58
Yeah.
Natalie 14:58
And to be. Called up, right? It’s not being called out. It’s being called up and an opportunity, like, to to live in more connection and more safety and love, which, like, who doesn’t want that?
Julie Menanno 14:59
Who doesn’t want that?
Natalie 14:59
Right. Who doesn’t want that? Yeah.I guess that’s really kind of all I wanted to say about that, because I just, like, I think there’s just so much, so much good stuff here to go over with you.
Derek 15:22
I do have one big question right off the bat, now that we’ve covered all of the attachment styles we have, secure, anxious, avoidant and disorganized. One big question that I have, and I think you talk about this in the book of like, obviously, everyone’s trying to aim for a secure attachment. But is there anyone that’s actually 100% secure in their relationship? I mean, it’s like, reality is, is very much just like, bad situations are going to come up and at some point, I don’t know. You’re the one that has the clinical experience with this. And so if there are people that are like this, that’s incredible. But like, when push comes to shove and you’re put into an ugly situation, like an ugly part of you comes out, I would imagine that that ugly part of people probably exists across the span. And so really, would it be like everyone kind of falls into anxious or avoidant or disorganized, and you’re aiming towards more of a secure attachment? Or is there people that are legitimately like, even in ugly situations, 100% of time they show up in a secure way. Or maybe I’m thinking about the situation in the wrong way.
Julie Menanno 16:27
Yeah. Secure isn’t perfect, right? Secure assumes that we have ruptures, yeah? Secure assumes that we show up in a yucky way sometimes, because all of us will.
Derek 16:37
Yeah.
Julie Menanno 16:37
The most secure person in the world has their blind spot and is going to be tired or hungry or, you know, whatever the trigger is will, or whatever the topic is, will kind of overwhelm their capacity. But it’s about the repair. People who are secure are able to repair that and get back to their kind of baseline, healthy way of being, and people who aren’t secure really, probably what the defining factor would be, the fact that they just don’t know how to repair and get back and so then the relationship sort of starts to erode. So I mean, I do believe, absolutely believe, that secure attachment exists. But again, secure isn’t perfect and flawless. It’s just being able to get back on track.
Derek 17:22
So to follow up with a with a question on that, I was basically, I was just preparing for this, because this is the thing that I’ve been excited for the last month to have this conversation with you, is I was thinking about how secure attachments there’s there’s just, like how you’re saying it’s not perfect, and like when people show up. I was just thinking, if someone that was previously anxious shows up and has a more secure attachment, that they bring a strength with them from that kind of anxious-I don’t know how to frame this correctly, but they bring the capacity for closeness and to pursue but when they do it in a secure way, it comes off as very, very caring, right? That they’re like, I really care about you, and they and they come after you, but they’re not doing it in a pathological way. Versus then you have someone that’s more avoidant, right? And instead of doing it in an avoidant way, they’re able to cool down and calm the situation in a more secure way. And so you have these kind of archetypes that then boil down into like, I don’t know the way that I’m framing this in my mind is you have avoidant, but then you have avoidant toxic, and then you have avoidant secure, right? Or something along those lines. I don’t know if that’s the correct way to frame it.
Julie Menanno 18:32
I think this answer might help you. So the second stage of the therapy that I do, which is called Emotionally Focused Therapy for couples. The first stage is just helping couples stabilize these communication patterns, right? But the second stage, once we once we kind of get that stabilized, is called A Pursuer Softening, which is basically anxious. In EFT we don’t use the word anxious, we use the word pursuer, but it’s a pursuer softening, so we’re not trying to change the anxious partners longing for connection. We’re just trying to soften their approach. And then the other part is called Engaging the Withdrawer. And actually, I’m saying this backwards, because we need to engage the withdrawer first before we’re going to soften the pursuer. And so we’re basically not trying to, you know, change the avoidants need to not get escalated, or, you know, some avoidants to get escalated. But we’re just trying to re emotionally engage them into the relationship. So we’re helping them move toward connection, and we’re helping the anxious partner move away from that kind of heated, hard, you know, sometimes aggressive, place that they go to.
Derek 18:33
Yeah.
Speaker 1 18:33
Yeah. And I-something that I’ve always kind of wondered that just makes sense in my mind, is that like, if by really not addressing and healing, you know, within our attachment styles and he way that we, you know, present and show up in the relationships that we’re in, do we unintentionally confirm our biggest fears about connection and the safety within it? You know, because I’ve seen so many examples, and even have lived out some of these examples myself, I’m wondering if we unintentionally confirm our own worst fears by not stepping into the healing within our attachment styles, by not having awareness. I’ve witnessed other friends, you know, being in these kind of situations, and even in myself, where it’s like that. You know, anxious attachment style is just pursuing, pursuing, going, going, or you don’t love me, you don’t this or that. And then in contrast, the avoidant also, all they’re hearing is, well, I’m not, I’m failing. I can’t, I can’t meet your needs. Like it’s always this, like we’re always just talking about the relationship. And so as a result, and I’ve watched them break down, and again, experienced it myself, and it’s just so heartbreaking because it’s like, you know, it’s this, like, without the intentionality and the work happening, you leave that relationship just feeling like I was right. I was so right. They didn’t actually love me. They can’t actually meet my needs. And I guess I don’t really know what the question is. I guess I would just really love for you to…
Julie Menanno 21:21
I think I’m getting you. You’re saying that, like, does the insecure attachment in itself create more insecure attachment and then start to make you believe that, oh, it See, I was right.
Natalie 21:33
Yes, that’s yeah. That’s exactly it.
Julie Menanno 21:35
Because we all have these ways of making sense of relationship problems when we don’t know kind of the right way to make sense. So basically, if you think about insecure attachment, is a reaction to a stressful relationship. So if you’re communicating from a place of insecure attachment going into it, or even as the relationship takes on negative energy, all you’re doing is creating more unsafety. And so if you’re creating more unsafety, then you’re going to create more stress and fear, and you’re going to continue to feel bad. But a lot of people make sense of it as, Well it was all them, because they don’t know any other way to make sense of it.
Natalie 22:15
Right.
Julie Menanno 22:15
And really, what was happening is both partners were somehow contributing in their own ways, to these negative cycles that absolutely reinforce and make even more rigid their positions. So two people can go into a relationship, and, you know, be close, and have, I mean, many, many people go in and they’re close, and they feel good with each other, because they haven’t had time yet for a lot of stress and rupture to build up, and then the next thing you know, they don’t know how to handle conflict, so they go into negative cycles, erode emotional safety. And then in response to that, they they start to become even more protected and more rigid. And then that just kind of keeps making things worse. And then the next thing you know, they’re in this place that they don’t even recognize.
Natalie 23:01
Right. And it, I mean, it kind of plays into another thought I had, you know, a lot of times I think, you know, we’re talking about how attachment style really begins in childhood, right? And then the idea of, you know, of we kind of repeat what’s familiar and comfortable, right? So you might naturally be more attracted to someone who repeats the patterns of how you experienced attachment, love and connection in your childhood, right? Which is just more confirmation of, like, you know, something’s wrong with me, or I just can’t get what I need or want, and then I just feel like we’ve come into this time. Like social media is great, right? There’s so much access, there’s so much information, it can help us be in connection. And there’s kind of this insidious underbelly, and I’ve seen it a lot when it comes to topics like this, and I’m guessing you have too, with almost a million followers on your social media. And I’m thinking about, in your book, when you were talking about the anxious attachment style is more likely to be the one that’s recognized something’s wrong. What do we do? Oh, I’m gonna read the book, I’m gonna listen to the podcast, and then they’re like, bringing it up, and then they’re, like, bringing it up, and they want to talk about it, and, you know, translates the avoidants, like, No, thank you. Of, oh, I don’t matter. And I don’t, you know, you don’t care. But kind of tying that into, you know, seeing it as the problem of the other person. You probably see a lot more people kind of being like the maybe the more anxious attachment styles, being a little more vocal on your page and be, you know, really kind of alienating, ostracizing, condemning, that avoidant attachment, rather than asking the question of, okay, what kind of role Am I playing, or did I play in my relationship with that avoidant attachment style? And on top of that, how can I pick up a lens to view things the way that they must have viewed them because of their avoidant attachment style, and how that might have been triggered because of how I showed up within my anxious attachment style. I mean, do you experience that where you see, like, a lot of kind of negativity and animosity, like, from, you know, between the two groups of, like, finger pointing and not a lot of like, Oh, huh. I wonder what role I’m playing in this.
Hey, I hope you’re enjoying today’s podcast. I just wanted to take a quick break, because if you’re listening, you probably know what we do here at Invigor Medical Podcast, but maybe not what we do at invigormedical.com. So let me introduce us. At Invigor we provide prescription strength treatments and peptides for weight loss, sexual health and lifestyle optimization. Every treatment plan is carefully prescribed by licensed doctors and sourced from legitimate pharmacies. You don’t ever need to buy questionable research chemicals again. And bonus, as a podcast listener, you get a 10% discount on your first treatment plan with code PODCAST10 at invigormedical.com. Now let’s get back to today’s episode.
Julie Menanno 25:51
Yeah, it’s really one sided, though. I don’t I mean, for every 10, you know, for 10 comments from an anxious partner bashing on an avoidant partner, there’s maybe one that’s an avoidant partner bashing on an anxious partner, if even that. So that just goes to show you that doesn’t mean that there aren’t avoidance that bash on anxious partners or do it in their head. They’re just not protesting people, so they’re not on on Instagram, kind of venting or lashing out or-and so it’s interesting, because you actually see the dynamics play out in comments, which is, you know, it’s like, what anxious partners are really saying when they make these comments that sometimes are pretty mean, you know, is, this is what’s my part of the relationship problem. That’s what they’re saying. In the comment, they just don’t know it. In the protest, in the criticism, in the blame. Oh, they’re proving their stuckness. They’re displaying their stuckness to the whole world, right? They don’t, they don’t see it. It’s like you really, if you can’t make a connection between avoidants are a problem. Everybody should avoid them every just if you are in a relationship with an avoidant, run away. If you don’t see the connection between that type of communication and your relationship problems, you’re completely blind. And so many people with anxious attachment because they’re wired to make sense of it from a place of other, you don’t love me, you don’t care about me, you’re emotionally disengaged, you’re, you know this, you’re that. Then they, you know, they’re going to just see everything through the lens of that.
Natalie 27:30
And then what is the avoidant person feeling in that moment when all of that is coming from the anxious attachment style?
Julie Menanno 27:33
Shamed.
Natalie 27:33
Ick.
What?
Shamed because…
Derek 27:36
Ick. [laughing]
Julie Menanno 27:42
Yeah. They’re, they’re more likely, honestly, to, you know, people with anxious attachment at the end of the day. You know, in their relationship, they’re going to make sense of the problem. If you really get below it, really get down into it. You know, they might not be aware of this at the beginning, but they’re, they’re going to say, Why am I not enough that they want to show up for me in the right way?
Natalie 28:06
Oh God, I feel that.
Julie Menanno 28:07
They have the choice to show up in the right way, right? They could if they really wanted to. But what is wrong with me that they don’t? They just don’t love me enough, right? But the avoidant partner, their bottom of the barrel is going to be what is wrong with me, that I can’t get it right. What is wrong with me? Right? That if I tried harder, if I were smarter, if, if I wasn’t so broken, I could probably fix this and get it right. I’m used to getting things right in life, and so the avoidant partners are going to read that. And, you know, there might be some of them that say anxious partners are aggressive and awful, but for the most part, they’re going to feel shame and they’re going to feel like, you know, bad about themselves.
Derek 28:55
Can I take a moment to kind of touch on this? You know, this is something you mentioned in your book, that there’s a gender split, where avoidant partners are predominantly men, and anxious partners are predominantly women. And I think that this ties in so much to, I mean, to so many things that we’re seeing right? And I think that we’re getting better about this where, like, men are coming out more and more and being able to talk more about their emotions and be more open with their partners. But you know, you’ve got so many things. You’ve got these Gender Wars. You’ve got people that are, you know, the influencers in the male space that are like, Oh, you’ve got to be an alpha male. You’ve got to be a sigma male. You’ve got to avoid being a beta male. You know, all these things. And it’s just like, you know? And then you get people that are that are on the red pill, or they’re black pill, they’re all all these terrible things that, just because they’re trying to, kind of the question that I’m trying to get to is, you know, it’s-avoidant partners, they say I’m not good enough. And so there’s got to be something else I can do. KRight? How can I be, you know, the alpha male? How can I, like, not care, or, Do you know any of these things? I don’t know, and I’m kind of running amok here. But like, can you talk a little bit more about this gender divide between the two styles?
Julie Menanno 28:55
Yeah, I mean, so I think that there’s, you know, no matter what somebody is saying, and no matter what their position is like, I should be more masculine, or men should be more emotionally engaged, or whatever, like, there’s truth to all of it, right? It’s not all coming from nowhere. It’s just that people take these concepts to the extreme. So it’s almost like you’re either an alpha male or you’re a beta male, right?
Natalie 30:38
Right.
Julie Menanno 30:39
Instead of, I can express my masculinity. And a lot of women truly do want that out of a man, you know, they want someone who is masculine in their energy, it helps them feel feminine, whatever. You know, some don’t I, but some do, right? And so there’s truth to that, but that doesn’t have to come at the expense of emotional engagement. And emotional engagement doesn’t have to come at the expense of masculinity. I mean, every woman wants an emotionally engaged guy too. And it’s like, I just think people are really missing, missing the golden meme here. You know, it’s like we can do both. I have, I would never want-I mean, I told you my mentor that I learned everything I know from he’s the most emotionally engaged. I mean, he’s brilliant, anything you like about the book I wrote, he taught me, and yet he is this, you know, masculine ex-firefighter, rescued people in 911 out of buildings as a firefighter. I mean, works with the NFL, works with military, like we couldn’t get a more masculine energy guy, but he’s both. So I just, I just don’t get, like, the missing, the missing piece about this, like, middle ground that, you know, yeah, I could explain it I guess.
Derek 31:50
I think that my favorite example of of being very masculine, it’s a fictional example. And, you know, I love fiction, but like that, that’s very masculine but is also very emotionally available, is uh, Aragorn from Lord of the Rings. I don’t know if there’s any other Lord of the Rings fans out there, but like, he’s so he, like, I don’t know there’s like, this amount of tenderness to him, but he’s also just, yeah, you know, just, I don’t know peak male person.
I don’t know that character. I’m sure you’re right, but I think there that that show, and I didn’t watch it, but from everything I’ve observed about it, oh, my God, they’re like in Scotland and everybody…
Natalie 32:28
Oh, Outlander?
Julie Menanno 32:29
Yes.
Natalie 32:30
That’s where she travels through time, in search of her great love.
Derek 32:33
Jamie. Do not mask yourself.
Natalie 32:38
Jamie!
Julie Menanno 32:38
Yeah. From what I know about him, you kind of get that.
Derek 32:39
Yeah, yeah. 100% that’s a guilty pleasure of Josie and I’s. We watch it together and yeah. So I can definitely attest to that.
Julie Menanno 32:47
You know, like honestly, I would describe, I would put my husband in that category. I mean, one of the things that really drew me to him, and attracted to me him, is he has this very deep voice. He has this very masculine and something about his voice just makes me feel safe and feminine and all these things, but he’s also very tender, and can talk about his feelings. So to me, it just doesn’t, I mean, I would consider, if he walks into the room, I mean, he’s definitely an alpha male, right? But he also is kind.
Natalie 33:15
He doesn’t need to present that way. You know, it’s not like, it’s not the false ego, right?
Julie Menanno 33:21
It’s not. No.
Natalie 33:21
There’s a difference between, I’ve always said, one of the things I’m most attracted to in a man is quiet confidence and soft strength. It doesn’t need to be exhibited. It doesn’t need to be on display on the Billboard. When they’re in the room and you’re having a conversation with them, you just feel it. You just know that they know it, and they’re at peace, and they don’t need to prove anything to you.
Julie Menanno 33:40
Exactly. Yep.
Natalie 33:41
Right? And it is. And I think, I think that you know, for men to, you know, this alpha male thing versus beta or whatever, it’s really a paradox that we’re embracing. And I think I’ve just seen a lot of sadness, and maybe this is, you know, a bit off topic, but I felt a lot of sadness for the disconnection between men and women, especially as having been a single woman for the last seven ish years, you know, in the dating world. And I just see so much content, and there’s just so much that’s just like, so negative toward men. And I mean, that’s, you know, the content I’m getting as a woman, right? And then I can kind of see it on the reverse with men, though maybe I don’t see it as much, and it’s really just heartbreaking to me.
Julie Menanno 34:22
It really is. I just don’t understand why anybody thinks it’s okay to bash on 50% or maybe 49% of the population. I don’t get that at all. I mean, I understand like there’s problems that we need to look at, but shame is never gonna fix anything. And and also we have sons. I mean, what are we? What are we teaching our sons by saying you’re just fundamental, you know, your gender is just fundamentally bad. And I don’t like it either. It makes me sad, too.
Natalie 34:51
And well I think I ever imagined if I were a man, and I’m receiving this message of you being a man is wrong, like everything that you’ve known about being. Man, and what you’ve witnessed is wrong, which I’m not saying that’s 100% of the message, but I’m saying that message is out there to a degree, right? And I’m asked to step into this other thing, but at the same time, I don’t feel any safety to actually become soft, right? Because I feel defensive and I feel like I need to protect because this isn’t safe and you don’t even know where to go from there.
Derek 35:19
You know? I think, one of my favorite quotes, and I don’t even know who said it, but it’s something along the lines of it. It doesn’t take any-being cruel, doesn’t show strength like showing kindness. That’s what requires true strength. And like, I think, I think that really what it boils down to is like, in order to actually manifest in your most masculine way. You have to be able to have that emotional side of you regulated otherwise when you lash out. Because, I mean, this is another thing from your book, is that, in general, I think that the masculine ideal, and I think this is why most men are kind of slotted into this category, is because that expectation of performance is so heavily put onto our backs, right? Like you have to perform. You have to provide for the family. You have to make sure that other people are following you. Right? And you know, at the end of the day, there comes a breaking point, and whether that’s between you and your partner, where the pursuer backs you into the corner, and then you snap, right? If you are emotionally regulated, it can prevent that snapping from happening and lashing out from happening. And, you know, like, I think that personally, as I read your book and I heard the avoidant kind of archetype, kind of, like, expounded on, I was just like, I resonated with it on so many levels, just because it’s like, yeah, this is what’s going on. And yeah, I’ve been through some pretty hard things very recently with a lot of the really relationships I’ve been in. And at one point I did get back into a corner, and I did lash out, and I’m just like, Man, I really wish I didn’t do that. And so like, again, like, I’m gonna say this again and again, but I’m so grateful for the work that you’ve done and for the ability like, and so maybe this would be a good segue to talk about some of the actual tools that that both anxious partners and avoidant partners can use to, like, really bring the temperature down in the situation. And actually, I want to bring up another concept of how you talked about when there’s an issue, it’s not necessarily a problem, because it’s kind of like the difference between weather and climate. So I don’t know if you can kind of segue from that to to the skill sets that we need to to use.
Julie Menanno 35:19
Okay, so, so yeah, that actually works well together. So we, you know, you asked me earlier, what, you know about secure attachment is, does it really exist? And it is a climate. It’s not, you know, defined by the weather, which can go up and down. I mean, you know, let’s look at the climate of San Diego, which arguably is one of the greatest climates. You know, in the in the world, it’s temperate. You know, there’s, there’s not a lot of extremes, and it’s, it’s comfortable for most people, but you’re going to get days where there’s just crazy rain and chaos and, you know, wind. And the difference between San Diego and, you know, another, I don’t know, Bozeman, Montana, where I live, is that it’s going to get back to that climate. You know it’s going to, you are safe if you live in San Diego, you know beyond a reason, you know beyond a doubt that you’re going to get back to your safe climate. It’s the good weather is going to come back, and that’s going to define the weather of San Diego. Nobody sits there and goes, oh my god, San Diego is the rainiest city I’ve ever lived in, right?
Derek 38:42
Seattle on the other hand.
Julie Menanno 38:44
Yes. I was gonna say Seattle, but then I didn’t want to dog on Seattle. Yeah. So, yeah. So basically, you know, if you’re in a relationship where your your climate is comfortable, most of the time, you can have rainy days. You just, you know, couples who are secure, they they really have inside of them, they kind of know they have a sense of security that this is hard, this is bad. We’re in a fight. We don’t see eye to eye about this, but like in in our hearts, we know we’re going to get back together. This isn’t going to kill us. This isn’t going to be like the end of our relationship. You know, this doesn’t define who we are as a couple and so really then, so we have to, you know, set that as the standard, right? You know, 75 to 90% of the time we feel safe and close and secure with each other. That other 10 to 25% you know, some couples are still kind of working there. We are maybe in a rupture, but we’re we know we can get back. We’re either in a rupture or we’re in a state of repair, but we’re going to get back to that, to that, you know, good stuff that kind of defines the relationship. And then so now we have to say, Well, okay, what are the skills? What are the skills to prevent those? Ruptures to begin with, because, yeah, we need to do that, you know, but that’s not always going to work, because ruptures happen, and then when the ruptures do happen, what are the skills to repair that and get back to our good climate?
And so in the book, I have, you know, the just a lot of different tools for creating the environment to begin with that is safe and secure. And then we have the skills that are when we do have to talk about hot topics and things that are difficult, how can we do that in a healthy way? And then the skills of getting back to normal. And so basically, the skills of of living in an attachment friendly environment are just, you know, really listening to each other, validating each other, being supportive each other, showing appreciation, you know, trying to focus on the positive. You know, not ignore the negative. But you know, in any given situation there’s usually, there’s a positive or a negative way to look at it, and, you know, just making sure that we’re nurturing the relationship and bonding, you know, we’re having positive emotional experiences together. What’s whether that’s sex or, you know, just spending time connecting, you know, going on walks together, traveling together for some couples, and just, just making sure that you’re, you’re enjoying your you’re feeling positive with each other, you know, and you’re nurturing that relationship Exactly. You’re feeling cared for me, you know, I like to say, like, look, 200 years ago, people didn’t really marry for love. They married for convenience, and, you know, financial reasons, whatever security reasons, some people did, but now we marry predominantly for love and companionship, and so we have more responsibility to take care of that.
You know, it’s just like I, you know, I have two main hobbies in my life, skiing and learning Italian, and I have to do them to make sure that I’m still good at them. You know, if I just stop doing them, I’m I’m not going to be able to expect that I can enjoy it as much when I do it. So it’s kind of the same with with your relationship with your partner. You really do have to put the time in to bond, and that bonding creates resiliency. And then the skills for communicating outside of negative cycles are very specific. I mean, we want to not go into blame and protest, and that means speaking from a place of self, which is, hey, you know, here’s how I’m impacted. When you’re chronically late, right? You know, I get impacted. I end up feeling kind of anxious all the time, and then when I don’t know that you’re caring and responding about that anxiety, then I feel kind of alone with it at the same time. And like, can we work on this? Can we help each other out with this? Or you might, you know, let’s say your partner is resistant to going to therapy. You know, most people are going to make sense of it as, oh, they don’t care about the relationship, and they’re, you know, they’re not as committed as I am, and then they’re going to go in with heat and say, you don’t care about the relationship, and kind of go into that blaming place. And what is a lot safer is to kind of try to understand what their resistance is all about, and saying, you know, listen, I get it, you know, I’m really understanding you. Like, if, if you associate getting therapy with this is right before divorce and or if you associate it with a threat, because the friends you’ve known that have gotten therapy have ended up splitting up, or if you associate it with, Hey, I’m weak, because that means I, if I ask for help, I’m weak like that makes sense to me that you wouldn’t want to go to therapy like you’re meeting them where they are. You’re validating that, but at the same time, you’re holding on to your own need, which is, you know, I get that, but at the same time, we’re in this really bad place. We’re not where I want to be, and it doesn’t feel good for me. And so, you know, for me, what feels helpful and safe is getting some help with this. Yeah, so that’s just a very different way to lead into a conversation. So I’m just trying to put these skills out there to like, how to bring hard conversations up, how to respond to your partner when they bring up hard things, so that you don’t go into this negative cycle. And then, you know, we have the same kind of skills that you can use to to repair when you did show up, not as your best selves.
Natalie 44:07
Right.
Derek 44:07
You know, real quick, I think that probably the biggest thing, one of the one of the biggest phrases that I have, a couple of very key takeaways that I’m probably going to remember for the rest of my life. But one of them is,the cycle is the enemy. The other person that you’re trying to connect with is not the enemy. It’s the cycle. It’s the negative cycle. And being able to kind of be meta about it and step out and being like, Wait, it’s like, what’s going on here? And what is my role in this? What is their role in this? Okay, let’s, let’s get down to the root of this and actually address the issue. Like, I think that’s such a powerful, powerful tool. And like, I’m so glad that it’s, it’s codified in this book and is ready for anyone in the world to read it. So sorry to interrupt.
Natalie 44:47
No, that kind of ties into one note that I made. It wasn’t what I was going to say, but I was, I was thinking about, you know, the role of how learning, your attachment style can help identify the role that you’re playing. In the drama triangle that you’re creating, yeah, right? Because I think without that, oftentimes you’re just gonna find in for those people that don’t know what a Drama Triangle, and I hope I don’t mind or this messes up, but it’s where you put people in the space of either their villain, victim or hero, you know? In a relationship to be, you know, well, that you know your partner’s the villain, or, you know, I’m the victim here. Or, well…
Derek 45:22
Sometimes I’m the villain. Yeah.
Natalie 45:23
It’s terrible, and it’s just this cycle that never ends. So when you were saying that, it made me think about how, at least for me, it really helped free me from that Drama Triangle, and, you know, really identifying, and as you’re talking about ways to kind of identify and work through, you know, these things I kept thinking about, like body intelligence, like checking in with your body and how it feels, because I wasn’t, just definitely not in tune with that at all for a very long time. I’m very much an overthinker primarily, like, I’m gonna think about how I feel, and then I’m gonna feel it, and then I’m gonna think about how I felt about it. But what’s really interesting is I just recently had an experience with a friend where there was disconnection, something had happened, and they were upset with me, and I wasn’t really sure why. I wasn’t sure what had happened, and kind of what was communicated to me was very vague, and then it was like, you know, we were disconnected, and I immediately felt in my body more strongly than I have in years, this sickness.
Julie Menanno 45:23
Wow.
Natalie 46:27
This nausea, and it was so familiar to me. It was so familiar, and I was just like, oh, oh, okay. And was able to stop and think and and consider, okay, what’s my role in this? What am I? And then, okay. What maybe, what’s maybe going on with them, and what could be impacting the way that they’re bringing this to me right now, and what’s my response, because I don’t ever want to feel again or be again this person that’s constantly hustling to repair the connection and and just, I’ll do whatever, I’ll admit that I’m wrong, or I’ll do this, or whatever, to just get back to connection. Right? And it was, it was really incredible. And I think I remember you talking about this a bit on the podcast. I listened to you as a guest. Was about, you know, checking in with your body and where do you feel? And I have, I have a couple of friends who kind of make fun of me a little bit for like, Oh, where do you feel it in your body? I don’t know where I feel it. And I’m like, maybe it’s not a thing for everyone, but for me,
Derek 47:34
Oh yeah.
Julie Menanno 47:34
Well it is. It is a thing for everyone. But yeah.
Derek 47:38
I kind of want to, yeah. I kind of want to latch on to this question, kind of like a parasite.
Natalie 47:44
You mean, like I did when I was in anxious attachment style?
Derek 47:46
That’s it!
Natalie 47:47
Parasitic? [laughing]
Derek 47:49
You know, there’s body responses. I know that you talk about, there are pathological ways to respond, and there’s more healthy ways to respond, and I can’t remember all of them. I’m going to try my best. There’s fight, flight, freeze and fun. That’s, yeah, so there’s, there’s, those are kind of the four pathological ones, but then there’s also kind of, like, four healthier versions of that. I don’t know if this is kind of in the same line.
Natalie 48:12
I think it is. I think it’s because I think that would be next, right? Because I guess my question really is, thank you for confirming, because I was going to talk to you about, like, where you feel it in your body, and how much of a role does that play. And so, yeah, I guess the question really is, just, how do people, for people that can’t understand checking in with their body, and it feels like, well like, for some of my friends who are just like you’ve asked me that before, and I have no idea how to answer your question, how, like, how would you recommend they, they tap into that, you know, in the moment?
Julie Menanno 48:47
Well first, yeah. Okay, so we need to start with bringing the trigger to life. So I don’t, you know, 25% plus of the work I do is body work. Like, I don’t not do body work with anybody. You know, it might take a little bit longer to help them find it, but you got to bring the trigger to life first of all, because a lot of times, you know, if we’re not really in a state of trigger, it’s a lack of what’s in our body. And so when I’m talking to someone and they’re talking about a past event, like it’s not alive for them. I’m going to say, like, Okay, I want you to close your eyes, and I want you to just really, you know, imagine your partner’s facial expressions when they said that to you, when they said, I’m just thinking of a random example, when they said, You know, I wouldn’t have put her in dance to begin with. Let’s say there’s a kid, and I had this situation with the client where they had their daughter in dance, and the other girls in dance were not being nice to the daughter, but, you know, the mom wanted her in dance because the daughter loved dance, and she’s getting all these good things from it. But this thing happened and so the husbands respond when the wife goes to him and says, you know, I’m worried because, you know, these girls aren’t being nice to her, whatever. And he looks at her and sees he says, Well, you know, I wouldn’t have put her in dance to begin with. I mean, I’m probably making that sound a little more dramatic, but that’s a pretty typical fight that a couple would have, right? Well, I would have never done that to begin with. And then you’re just like, wait, what?
Natalie 50:26
Yeah.
Julie Menanno 50:26
And so I’m gonna bring that life. I want you to really imagine their facial expression when they say that. I’m gonna slow it down. I’m gonna say they look at you and they say, I would have never put her in dance to begin with what comes up in your body right now, just as we sort of sit with that line? And usually that’s going to kind of trigger it. Sometimes people, you know, what I need to do is I need to get them in a really positive state and then bring in the negative. I’m going to say, Okay, I want you to close your eyes, and I want you to imagine a moment where you know you’re getting it right for your partner, right? You’re saying the right thing. They’re smiling. They see you as as successful in getting it right for them. And what, you know, maybe bring in, have them tell me a story. You know, I know, even sometimes with avoidance, say, at work, get something right, right. You get it right. Your boss is happy with you, and you get good feedback, and they’ll just say, Oh, I just feel relaxed, you know, I don’t feel any tension in my body. And then, I’ll say, well forgive me, but now I want you to imagine the opposite of that. And your partner comes in, and you’re getting these messages once again, they’ve let you down. Once again, you get blindsided with what you did and get right. And then all of a sudden, bam, they recognize, because of the contrast, the tension rise up in their body. So those are just a couple of things that I do. I mean, we really, for someone to feel their body, they really need to have that reaction happening in a live way. And then with other people, you know, sometimes all you can do to start with is just give them the facts, the information, just the awareness that, yeah, this stuff really is happening in your body. Like you don’t, nobody escapes that. You might be conscious of it or not conscious of it, but when they did the original studies that labeled the attachment styles in the you know, with with children, it started out with children. You know, you had these avoidant babies, and you had these anxious babies, and the anxious babies were just rah, you know, they were crying and their bodies moving and they’re obviously in distress. And then you have the avoidant babies, you’re just sitting there playing with the toys quietly, like there’s nothing going on with them. Guess who was more aroused internally? Guess who was actually more physically distressed? The avoidant babies. They had higher blood pressure. They had higher heart rate. You know, everything was all their physical signs were higher, because at least the anxious babies are expressing that energy. Exactly.
Natalie 53:01
Right. It makes me think of the Body Keeps the Score.
Julie Menanno 53:04
Absolutely. That book is just, it’s everything.
Natalie 53:07
Right. Ithink that we just kind of have such a disconnection from our bodies in general. You know, we became a society that is so cerebral and it’s so celebrated, you know, all of our all of our achievements and our research and our medical discoveries and all this stuff, and it’s all great, but I feel, you know, we’ve left behind this ancient intrinsic knowing of being in our bodies and trusting the gut, the second brain and those feelings. So that makes so much sense to me.
Julie Menanno 53:35
And then the shame too, that people feel around their body, it’s like, you were saying your friends like they don’t like that. I mean, so many people react like that. They almost like, get embarrassed. They don’t want to talk about what’s in their body. And I know, like, I knew this with my kids, and I didn’t do it forever, because this is relatively new information that people are really starting to understand the somatic link. So when I first started doing it with my kids and husband. They were, like, just very resistant to it, but now they’re like, Oh, my chest is tightening up. My head feels pressured. So it just, I mean, honestly, it just takes safety around that question and a lot of repeating it over and over again. Just, you know, like anything else, it starts with awareness. And yeah, and then you just start kind of paying attention a little bit. And then, you know, if you stick with it, you get pretty good.
Natalie 54:29
And then, yeah, I’m still developing. It was such a forward concept for me, but I think for me it I feel a lot of freedom, because there’s a lot of when your mind is racing, you know, it can, it can be exhausting, and it can also, and it because you can just question that and question that, no, maybe that’s not right, and then it just never stops. Whereas there’s something so solid about being in my body and trusting an instinct. You know, I remember once I was dating this guy, and everything on paper was great, and he was great to me. And he was, you know, giving me the love languages in the way that I need them. And he was present, and we had great and all this stuff, and I just wasn’t clicking, it wasn’t connecting. It wasn’t clicking, it wasn’t connecting. And that was about the time that I started learning about body intelligence, and I gave myself permission to be like, it’s just not it for me. If it’s not a whole body, yes, then it’s a no.
Julie Menanno 55:16
Yeah. And your body was picking up some discrepancies, you know, or maybe it was your stuff that your body was picking up.
Natalie 55:24
Well, once I got distance from it,
Julie Menanno 55:25
You’re body was picking up something.
Natalie 55:26
Yeah, but once I got some space from it, then I was, then I had the space and the clarity that my mind was able to go, oh, this. Okay, yeah. But I couldn’t…
Julie Menanno 55:36
Right because you have to, yeah. It’s not just about feeling it, but it’s also about listening to it. What is it trying to say? What is it afraid of? What is it trying to motivate? You know, one of the biggest shifts for me in my own relationship was I was like getting all of this cleft intellectually. You know, this was many years ago, but I wasn’t able to regulate the feeling when I was really triggered, and it usually it was like when I was mad, right? When my husband did or said something that didn’t sit well. And I just couldn’t figure out how to get my body into a calmer place before I started talking. And then, through training of my own work and things like that, I finally figured it out what worked for me and him too. And it’s, it’s when I feel it, it’s going to him and saying, This is so funny. [laughing] It’s what works for us! It’s going to him and saying, My body has a lot of pressure, and I need to be under it needs to be understood right now. It’s not being reactive, like you’re this, you’re that. It’s not, but it’s also not trying to make the feeling go away or override the feeling. It’s honoring it and just being a little more clear about what I’m needing, you know, but I still get to have that, you know, that energy there, but it’s not, you know, there’s a different flavor to it. It’s like, help me with my body. My body has this horrible, yucky pressure, and I really need to be understood. And, you know, sometimes we have to work with the other partner to be able to respond to that in a healthy way. But it’s so much easier to respond to that when someone’s like, I’m on fire, please help me, than when you’re just lashing out at them and kind of, yeah.
Natalie 57:27
And how much easier if you’ve done your own work. And so you have empathy and compassion, because you know what that feels like for yourself. So your partner comes to you and says, I’m feeling this thing in my body. You’re like, Oh, I know what I need. When I’m feeling something in my body, I need to be understood and I need to be met where I’m at with compassion and grace and empathy. And it’s just such an-it’s such a beautiful co laboring when two people are doing that.
Julie Menanno 57:48
And that is the right word. It’s co laboring, because both partners really need to be able to help each other, one one in their delivery and one in their reception.
Derek 57:57
Yeah.
Natalie 57:58
Yeah. I love it. That’s beautiful. I like, we we have so much, we could talk about more, but I’m, like, looking at the clock and we want to respect your schedule.
Derek 58:06
Yeah.
Natalie 58:07
But this has just been so incredible, and the resources, you know, the book is so, so good. And I just, I’m just so blown away by the little, little, tiny coffee table book.
Julie Menanno 58:19
Yeah! I had to um, I was, it kind of went underground because my publishing company for the big book didn’t want me to have it around until the big book was out for six months. So July, I have my basement is literally full of boxes, like 1000s of those books.
Natalie 58:37
Oh, my Gosh.
Julie Menanno 58:38
So July 30, I can start, I can start moving them again.
Natalie 58:42
I love it.
Derek 58:43
That’ll probably be right around the time that we release this. So I think that’s perfect timing.
Natalie 58:46
Yeah. That’ll be perfect timing. Just a nice little, like reminder, you know, like one of my favorite books is just like a daily little thing I read called Pivot Year, and it’s just great to have just that little, short, digestible bite, because totally so busy, so crazy. So this, you know, the book.
Julie Menanno 59:03
People love that book too. I mean, just love it. I think it might even outsell the other book.
Natalie 59:11
Yeah. Yeah!. It’d make a great little gift. What a great companion, too.
Julie Menanno 59:14
I know! It is. It is. I don’t, I didn’t mean for it to happen like that, but it all, you know, it works, so.
It worked out really well.
Natalie 59:20
Yeah, it’s worked out really well. So for those of you listening, Secure Love, Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime, by our lovely guest, Julie Menanno, and then the little accompanying book, The Secure Relationships, Tips and Skills to Keep Your Relationship Strong. And I only just got my hands on this this morning, and just read through several pages, and I even like took some pictures to like, send to some friends, because it’s just it’s so impactful. And where can people find you on Instagram? Because I know you do a lot of beautiful content on Instagram. What is the handle?
Julie Menanno 59:49
It is @thesecurerelationship. And so just like, it’s spelled just like it sounds, The Secure Relationship. But there are imposter accounts, and they. look very legitimate. They, you know, copy everything I do. And so you have to get that blue check.
Natalie 1:00:05
The blue check mark.
Julie Menanno 1:00:06
Yeah.
Derek 1:00:07
I just want to share one last thing. And this, I was actually as I was preparing for this. I knew it was like, this is going to be my final thought that I share with it. I think that the biggest gift that you’ve given to me is, and this is a little bit of a story. So, yeah, I wonder if I’ve got time.
Julie Menanno 1:00:23
Please. I love stories.
Derek 1:00:23
But growing up, logic and, you know, we were kind of not confrontational, but we loved to debate with each other. And Spock from Star Trek was, like…
Julie Menanno 1:00:37
The Ultimate.
Derek 1:00:37
…was the person. Yeah, he was the person to emulate. And, you know, like, he, Vulcans, right? They always repress their feelings, and they’re very logical. And so, you know, I was, I think, out of all my siblings, I was probably the most dysregulated. I was diagnosed with ADHD. I was hyper, bouncing off the walls. I was all over the place. And I think I got the message a lot of like, Hey, you’re, you’re too much. And, when I read in your book, you said something along the lines of, emotions are rational. And I’m like, what does that mean? I don’t I didn’t understand that. And but then you explained it, and it’s just like emotions are rational because they wouldn’t be there if something didn’t happen. And so if you don’t address it at the root and acknowledge that emotions are rational. You’re not gonna You’re gonna miss it. And I’m just like, what a profound insight. And like, it fundamentally changed the way that I look at emotions and how I look at myself when I’m feeling emotional. Instead of shoving it down and shoving it away, it gives me permission to be able to say, No, there’s something behind this, and there’s something much greater than that. So I just wanted to personally thank you for for that, because it is such an amazing gift.
Julie Menanno 1:00:37
Oh. You’re so welcome.
Natalie 1:01:02
Yeah, feelings are not facts, but they inform a lot.
Derek 1:01:16
Yeah.
Natalie 1:01:17
Right?
Derek 1:01:19
Well, and they’re just…
Natalie 1:01:24
But they’re rational.
Derek 1:01:29
Emotions are rational.
Julie Menanno 1:01:35
But they are facts. They are facts. That doesn’t mean that you know, the meaning that we’re making of them are facts, but the feeling in your body is an absolute fact.
Natalie 1:02:06
Yeah. I think that’s so cool. And I think we could have a whole nother conversation on we’ve got attachment styles and parenting, because that was really getting me reading through it and thinking about my own kids and how I can support healthy attachment styles in them, and also looking and being like, oh my god, I’m messing this up. But there’s so much to go over. And so…
Julie Menanno 1:02:25
You know, if you want a quick tip, what I think is the absolute best information out there is Gabor Mate, part 6 of aScattered Mind, or Scattered Minds, I can’t remember. It’s an actual it’s actually an ADD book, but part six, I mean, it just hits it. I’m just like, This is it. I’ve never read it verbalize so well.
Natalie 1:02:26
Okay, amazing. Thank you.
Derek 1:02:29
Alright. I’ll check that out.
Julie Menanno 1:02:35
And that’s how I parent my own children, and there’s a difference between night and day.
Derek 1:02:55
That’s incredible.
Natalie 1:02:56
I cannot wait.
Julie Menanno 1:02:57
And I have six of them, so I have a lot of people to study.
Derek 1:03:01
Julie, it’s been an absolute honor having you on and we would absolutely love to have another interview with you again in the future.
Thanks for tuning in to the Invigor Medical Podcast.
Natalie 1:03:12
If you enjoyed today’s episode, you can support us by liking and subscribing.
Derek 1:03:16
Your feedback matters, so feel free to share questions or future episode ideas in the comments section.
Natalie 1:03:21
For more information about our prescription strength treatments for weight loss, ED, and overall wellness, all from qualified doctors and reputable pharmacies, visit us at invigormedical.com and don’t forget to use code PODCAST10 for a 10% discount on your first treatment plan until next time, stay well.
